Thabo Mbeki

Mbeki: Well, one of them is the affect of the removal of foreign exchange controls. And therefore allowing for free movement of capital in and out of the country. We've already had an experience of that: a drop in the value of the rand, not based on anything that was wrong with the South African economy. It’s true that to some extent the rand was overvalued, but you had a response to the story that Nelson Mandela was sick. And because we are a new democracy, the fear of course was that if Nelson Mandela became paralyzed and sick, the country would collapse and the government would be in trouble. So short-term money ran away, but in due course there was nothing wrong with Nelson Mandela and nothing wrong with the economy -- so the confidence returned. Or, you get the problem that is happening with regard to the price of gold, which is impacted upon [by] just trading in gold on the basis of rumor, speculation, short-term sentiment and so on. It’s clear that if you have a growing uncertainty about the emerging markets, it affects others. In terms of Asia we have not been affected. I think largely because the people who own money do understand that a lot of the problems are specific rather than kind of endemic to emerging markets. If Indonesia has got political problems about succession to President Suharto, that is Indonesia's problem -- it cannot be generalized. But it’s quite clear that we would be exposed if there were to be general negative sentiment against emerging markets. That would obviously affect us.

Mbeki: I think there is a very good thing that is happening. In the whole international economic debate there are issues of poverty, of a better life, of equity … those issues are coming back to the agenda even of the international corporate world. A movement away from merely what governs our decisions and behavior is the bottom line and that’s it. I think it’s a very good thing, a very positive thing and it's clearly one of the issues. That’s the reason in a much stronger way, during this session of the World Economic Forum and that’s a good thing. And it’s clear that we need to find a way of really raising the profile of that kind of issue higher - within the world multi-lateral organizations inter-governmental, private and so on. But I think the other thing that is relevant to this is that there is clearly a difference between people who handle financial capital and people who handle direct investment. You can see it at the conference. Major corporations that build infrastructure -- set up factories and so on -- have a view, much more stable, much more predictable, much more focused on the good things that should be done, apart from insuring their companies be profitable. Whereas the people who are dealing, the fund managers, are of course looking for the short-term opportunistic opportunities. So, I think it is necessary to reinforce the voice of these ones who create real wealth as part of the process of raising the profile of this, and I think that with regard to the South African instance. Fortunately, with regard to South Africa, even among corporate leaders, their agenda about South Africa tends to go beyond merely profit and investment opportunity -- their sensitivity to the issue that South Africa needs to succeed both politically and socially.

I'm saying among these top business people, this is what they say when they view the South African thing. And that gives us an advantage, in that we can then say, Yes indeed, these are good commercial propositions, but they also relate to these larger issues about which business people are already actually sensitive.

Mbeki: Yes, quite clearly I'm quite sure about it. Sovereignty of countries is being eroded, and of course the smaller and weaker you are, the faster and more biting that process of that erosion of sovereignty. It has certainly been my view that we need to compensate for that, and the need to compensate for it is by strengthening the bodies of international government, and strengthening the voice of the weaker countries in those bodies, because the globalization process is, indeed, globalizing government also. The World Trade Organization decides tariffs for countries, and that becomes a decision, which you must implement as this sovereign state. But then it's necessary that South Africa, like all other countries, must have an appropriate weight in terms of the decision making process of the World Trade Organization. One should not ask for people to compromise shareholder interest, but one should expand that pyramid of what is shareholder interest. And surely, shareholder interest for General Motors must include the notion that if an additional South African has extra money in their pockets, they've got extra possibility to buy GM’s product. Now, how do we intervene in a way that we push back poverty to enlarge the markets and that would be consistent with shareholder interest defined in a much broader way?

Mbeki: I think it's correct to the extent that as you see the corporate sector get stronger and all the measures that are taking place across the world, you are seeing a consolidation of economic power in fewer and fewer hands. It's an outcome, a reflection of, and also a cause of this process of globalization. And to the extent that you did have power being concentrated in that matter, I think the human responsibilities of that corporation increase, whether you are dealing with environmental questions, or child labor -- whatever issue. I think it would be a natural consequence that there should be a focus on that issue too.

But with regard to the human rights issue generally, I think that the human rights frontiers are expanding rather than contracting. You say "in part", because I think the globalization of human society is also resulting in certain standard rules emerging. If you want to be a part of this global society, there are certain things which you have to do, and that includes questions of democratic rights, of human rights, and so on. So I think the tendency is away from repression and so on. It happens, you might have a reversal in one country or another, but I think the general tendency universally is towards certain kinds of societies in political arrangements and economic arrangements which become a rule for everybody.

Mbeki: There is a dilemma. There is a tension among these things pulling in opposite directions in certain instances. Trade interests might indeed oblige people to act in a manner, which seems to suggest that they don't care then about human rights. I don't think there is any instance of a major social issue where you get straight answers. We should be able to trade with everybody else but we must also be able and willing to speak out against human abuse when it occurs. The balance -- there are no mathematical rules.

Mbeki: There is a particular process taking place in Nigeria -- the government is saying that a civilian government will be elected, a president, etc. That process will continue, and I think if you take the generality of the Nigerian population, my sense is that that population will go along with that process. A critical voice will remain. People who are opposed to that process -- saying it is ungenuine and so on -- [may continue], but the majority of Nigerian people I'm quite sure will go along with that process. We have thought it was important that any process of change in Nigeria should enjoy legitimacy among all the people of Nigeria, and therefore we have been saying to the government of Nigeria that we believe for instance that all political prisoners must be released. Not only released but to have a free possibility to impact on any process of transition back to civilian democratic govt. We continue to hold to that position and continue to communicate this message to the Nigerian government. And we think that that is important.

Mbeki: They will not happen. They will not happen. When Nelson Mandela made this call people kept saying, we expect moral leadership from South Africa and so on. I don't believe the United States has ever waited for moral leadership from us to take whatever decision they considered important. It seems to be that people were hiding behind this -- they were not willing to act and they found that if only this moral leadership comes, then we'll act, and when it came, they didn't do anything. I don't think the will is there, but we have to continue to engage the issue, doing everything we can to insure that Nigeria becomes a democratic country, and that all of these human rights and other issues are addressed. There are certain instruments, that if one talks realistically, are not available because people who buy Nigerian oil are not about to stop buying Nigerian oil, and countries where there are substantial deposits of money from Nigeria are not about to act -- that is very clear.

They say they are doing what needs to happen. They are talking to the government about these issues. They are dealing with environmental questions, all of that. That’s what they say. They are engaged in processes there to talk about a more equitable economy -- addressing questions of corruption and so on. I don’t know. Perhaps people could do more. Understanding as I was saying, we might want to close our eyes to what is actually happening in Nigeria. The majority of Nigerians won't close their eyes to this. You will hear voices saying, "Not right, not correct," and we are saying too that for that process to have the legitimacy it needs, you need all these major political voices to be a part of that process and not locked up in prison.

Go back to the list of interviewees.